How to Master the Art of Nonprofit Leadership [Podcast]

Do you ever struggle with imposter syndrome in your nonprofit leadership role?

Do you sometimes wonder if you’re a good leader? (And how you can know if you are or not?)

Or struggle to prioritize training when there’s SO MUCH to get done?

Well, you’re not the only one! Many leaders, nonprofit and otherwise, struggle to master the art of leadership. It’s not a skill you learn on the way up, but once you’re at the top it’s the #1 skill you need to grow.

This week on A Modern Nonprofit, we’re joined by Scott Drake to discuss how to make leadership simpler, shortcut your learning curve, and help you reach your potential much faster.

Scott is the founder of JumpCoach. And after 10 years of developing himself into a strong confident leader, he’s dedicated himself to helping the next generation of leaders maximize their success.

For more nonprofit accounting resources check out www.thecharitycfo.com

For more information on how to grow as a leader, visit JumpCoach @ www.jumpcoach.com

🎥 Click the video below to watch the episode on YouTube.

🎧 Click here to listen to the Podcast on AnchorFM or Apple Podcasts

👇 Or scroll below the video to read the full transcript of our conversation

 

 

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A Modern Nonprofit Podcast

How to Master the Art of Nonprofit Leadership with Scott Drake

10/29/2021

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of A Modern Nonprofit Podcast. My name’s Tosha Anderson. I’m going to be your host today. Today I invited along my friend, Scott Drake. Scott and I are going to be talking today about nonprofit leadership development, overcoming imposter syndrome, professional development for the nonprofit space. And Scott has put together an incredible program we’re going to talk a little bit more about. And lucky for you all, he has a lot of resources that are absolutely free for nonprofit leaders. But Scott, first, before we dive into all of that, and we tell people what resources they can get from you, thank you first and foremost for coming on the show today and chatting a little bit more about your experience. And I’m really excited to get into this. Professional development is a for all industries, especially in the nonprofit world.

Scott Drake:

Yeah. Tosha, thanks so much for inviting me. I appreciate it. And I’m looking forward to it as well.

Tosha Anderson:

So Scott, one of the things that I’ve noticed, and I say this from my own experience, that nonprofits don’t invest enough time into training. And there’s a lot of different reasons for that. And I know what my reasons are, but before we kind of dive into what I believe nonprofit leaders don’t invest enough time… And then it’s not necessarily because of desire, but there’s lots of other reasons that are an issue. Scott, what have you seen in your experience that are barriers, and why are nonprofit leaders not investing more time into their own training?

Scott Drake:

Yeah, So I think you got to answer that in two ways. First, you got to look at the broader executive or the broader nonprofit leadership group, and say why don’t leaders as a whole invest in their training. And then I think that there are a couple of things within nonprofit that may be a little bit more unique. But more broadly, I think people don’t because there’s a little bit of overwhelm, right? You look at the leadership training options, and there’s thousands and thousands of books, and thousands of courses. And what do I take and what do I need, and what’s useful for me? And so there’s a little bit of overwhelm of just not knowing where to start.

Scott Drake:

There’s issues of people who have invested in training, and it wasn’t good, or the right training, or it wasn’t useful. So they’ve got maybe a little bit of a bad experience in the past. They may not want to spend time, or they think it takes a lot of time, or they just don’t see the value in it. So there’s a lot of that kind of stuff that I think impacts a lot of different leaders, right? It’s just access and not knowing what, and just kind of dealing with that overwhelm, right? How do I strategically kind of figure out what to do?

Scott Drake:

And then I think you get into the nonprofit. And I think, my experience at least, this isn’t based on any research, this is based on my experience with nonprofit leaders, is a lot of them are just even more focused on my time has to be spent helping my constituents. And I don’t want to take time, or I don’t want to spend money, or I don’t want to allocate resources to develop myself, right? It feels a little bit selfish at times. I’m spending my resources developing myself instead of spending my resources on others. And I think I’ve seen that quite a bit in the nonprofit space.

Tosha Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve seen, too, training is usually a very small budget in the nonprofit world because everything is budget sensitive. And it’s really funny because we’re in the season of starting to put budgets together for our clients that have December year ends right now. And there’s always a line item generally for our larger organizations. And I will tell you, training is one of the first things that get cut. And what’s also interesting with that, Scott, which I’m sure you know about the work that you do, and just business in general, I’m always paying attention to why people are leaving jobs. Especially right now, right? We have this great resignation. People are leaving their jobs. And the nonprofit world is certainly no exception that people are burned out, right? People are overworked under paid, under appreciated, whatever it is.

Tosha Anderson:

And time and time again, it’s bad leadership is the number one reason why people are leading jobs, right? In any sector, especially in the nonprofit space. So like I said, I’m really excited about this conversation because I think we as leaders in the nonprofit space, and me, at least in my time, I don’t know if I ever had a training that I went through when I worked for a nonprofit. And I will say, as the person that helps put budgets together, that is the first thing that gets cut, unfortunately. And I think it’s worthwhile to kind of consider an entire strategic decision on how to keep that in your budget and being really intentional with that, right? It’s part of the culture. It’s part of even the board’s direction. So kind of along those same lines of being strategic and intentional, how do you think leaders can be more intentional, or how have you seen them more intentional or strategic about their own training, or even their staff training?

Scott Drake:

Sure. So I think I’ll touch on a couple of things that you mentioned there. Number one, bad leaders driving for people away, right? And if you look at what makes a great leader versus what makes a bad leader, there’s actually a study about 15 years ago that came out in Harvard Business Review of what they call the seven transformations of leadership. And the biggest factor they found wasn’t skills and it wasn’t style of leadership. It was what they called their action logic, or kind of their mindset or their approach about leadership.

Scott Drake:

And that most bad leaders approach nonprofit leadership with the same mindset that they had when they were a role player. So the things that made me a great computer programmer, in my case, or a great accountant or a great salesperson or a great fundraiser. Those things that made me great at that, that attitude, you put that attitude in a leader and it can be toxic in some cases. Because what your people want is your people want autonomy. Your people want to be challenged with problems to solve. And when a leader stays too involved, then the team can’t get out of their work what they need to get out of the work to be motivated and feel good about what they’re doing.

Scott Drake:

So from a strategic standpoint, it’s to really recognize, number one, the first thing you need to address is mindset. And that’s really, it’s a choice, right? It’s not about adding a bunch of skills. It’s doing some work and reflective work to recognize how you’re coming across in certain situations so that you can come across better as a leader.

Scott Drake:

And then I’ve created some tools to help people kind of make sense of the noise, right? The noise of the industry keeps a lot of people from being strategic. They end up they feel like they’re wasting their time. They feel like they’re throwing away money. They say, “I want to do training, but I don’t know what training I want to do. And I spend an hour looking around. And I throw my hands up and I say forget it. I’ll just cross it off the line, and we’ll just do it next year.” Right? Yeah. And I think so there’s some tools that I’ve created to kind of help people understand the whole of the options, and then focus in certain areas, and then discover some of the things that can be more useful for them. So yeah, there’s definitely start with mindset. But then work to get an understanding of the whole so that you can start to be more strategic about where you invest the training.

Tosha Anderson:

I think that’s good because I think sometimes that I’ve seen in any industry certainly is training on the more technical side of things. Oh, there’s a new software update. We need to do training on that. Or in the accounting world, there’s new accounting standards. So we need to do training on that. And I’ve actually talked with a lot of nonprofit leaders that have started in that role. Usually come through the programmatic side of the business and end up in a leadership position. But they have no training, no guidance, no mentorship on how to be an effective leader. So kind of with that said, how can someone kind of accelerate their growth? I mean, they’re kind of thrown into this nonprofit leadership role. They need to get up to speed pretty quickly. How would you suggest somebody kind of tackles that journey going from a role player to a leader within the organization? What are some basic tips that maybe you could help us with?

Scott Drake:

Sure. So first recognize that leadership is. Leadership, at its most basic level, is working through others to get things done, right? It’s not about doing things yourself. It’s not about redoing the work for your team. It is working through others to get things done. There are things you need done that you can’t, or don’t want to do with your own two hands because you don’t have time or you don’t have the skills or the ability, or you need to focus your time on something better or different that’s more valuable for you. So it’s truly working through others to get things done.

Scott Drake:

And it really goes back to that mindset piece. It goes back to saying, I am going to make this decision and make this choice that, even if people aren’t doing things the way I think they should be done, if they accomplish our goals, if they move us closer to our goals and it builds their engagement and it makes them happy and it keeps them engaged, then I need to be okay with that. I need to make this decision from a mindset standpoint to be okay with things getting done differently than I would’ve made. So that’s the very first thing is just recognize that that is what leadership is in a nonprofit. It is working through others to get things done.

Scott Drake:

And then it’s really, I think some of the early key pieces to study and to look to get better at are how do you deal with situations? I call them moments that matter, right? When you’re delegating something, can you delegate a problem and a challenge instead of just being a task master and giving people tasks, right? Or if somebody brings you a problem, and you need to help them coach problem solving, how do you do that in an empowering way, right? How do you do that in a way that unlocks the thinking of that person, instead of you just telling them what to do, and it just takes all the joy out of the work, right? It’s solving that problem, there’s joy in that for that person to do. So as a leader, kind of learn some of those basic things to handle those moments that matter well. Recognizing the motivational impact it’s going to have on that team member.

Tosha Anderson:

Can you talk to me a little bit more about the moments that matter? Because I think it sounds very just relatable in many ways. But I think we could easily miss those moments that matter because it’s about perception. It’s about personal opinion. And everybody’s reality is differently. So I don’t know. I’m just curious to know a little bit more about how you would define those moments that matter or how people like, oh, I didn’t know there were moments that matter. How do I know which moments matter? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Scott Drake:

Yeah. So if you think about when and where does leadership happen? Leadership is working through others. When does that actually happen? And it happens in just moments of interactions between two people, between a leader and a person or a small group of people. And in that moment, that team can either get everything it needs. It gets clarity, it gets answers, it gets challenges. It gets things that are going to bring it motivation and excited and move it forward. Or in those moments, it can get things that are going to hold it back. It can get confusion and doubt and fear and uncertainty.

Scott Drake:

So as a leader, a lot of times we come at it feeling like I’ve got to have all the answers. My team is not going to respect me or trust me if I don’t have all the answers. So a lot of times a teammate may bring me a problem. My first thought is just give them all the answers, right? But really, a lot of times you’re giving them answers that they’ve already thought about and they’ve already dismissed, right? There’s things that happen in those moments of either delegation or coaching problem solving, or when somebody shares an idea. Somebody shares an idea and we’re wired as humans to see all the problems with that idea. So if we respond in that moment of just going, “Well, here’s all the problems I see. I don’t know why you think that’s a great idea.”

Scott Drake:

If you respond to that moment with, “Why do you think that’s a good idea? What problems does this solve? What does this address,” then you actually bring clarity to that situation instead of bringing confusion and doubt. So you have to start looking at those interaction as what does that person want and what are they getting? And a lot of times we think we’re doing a great job in helping them, but what we’re really doing is creating doubt. So it’s hard to do sometimes why emotional intelligence is so important, it’s hard to respond in healthy ways. But it’s one of the most important things to get right early as a leader. And it’s part of what our training covers that as well.

Tosha Anderson:

Well, it’s interesting because when I thought, when you said that word moments that matter, that’s immediately what I thought about. The emotional kind of interaction and sometimes very brief, and not responding in a way that’s, especially for new employees or employees that are new to specific tasks, and kind of creating, we all talk about an open door policy, and come ask me questions, but how are we receiving those questions? And is there a level of intimidation, or is there a level of my boss seems frustrated or annoyed when I talk to them and ask them questions? And it’s just those subtle little moments when it’s kind of a knock on the door, and you’re interrupted, or you’re rushed, and you’re running from one thing to the other. But from the employee’s perspective, those those moments matter, right? Do I feel like this is a safe place to ask questions? Do I think they’re going to be receptive to my ideas. Those sort of things. So I would guess to say there are far more moments that matter than maybe we would think about. So thank you for that. That’s something to think about, for sure.

Scott Drake:

Yeah. I left a job because the CEO, and I even tried to coach him, right? It’s funny when you’re on his team and you try to coach him. But he would respond in a couple of situations in ways that was very destructive. And it was destructive to my team and it caused a lot of stress to me. And I worked with him for 18 months trying to get him to handle those moments better, right? This was a really smart guy, really nice guy, well intentioned. But there were a couple of situations where he responded in ways that was just very damaging. And it eventually drove me away. Eventually I had to leave that organization because it just wasn’t healthy for me to be there anymore. So it’s amazing how those small little interactions, those small little moments, really do have a big impact on how you come across as a leader.

Tosha Anderson:

Well, it’s interesting because I think about employees that are really disgruntled. I mean, generally people start pretty happy at their jobs and they stay pretty content for a while, right? But there’s usually, every time I’ve ever left a job, I can remember there’s usually a moment or a few moments that they were very impressionable to me. They were really something I could think back and immediately these are the key moments that mattered. That I had that interaction with my boss and it did not go well. And I might have stayed there for a little while longer, but I could go back to every job I ever chose to leave and I could cite a few specific moments. Even though I was working there for seven years in one situation, or four or five years in another situation, right? There was a lot of moments. And certainly you always are going to have opinions or disagreements or whatever, but there’s those few key moments.

Tosha Anderson:

And I think that’s really important for us as leaders to be mindful of. Are we creating one of those moments for our employees? And usually those are kind of more serious conversations or issues that they’re dealing with and how we approach those really can create that imprint in their mind and kind of impression as to who you are as a leader. So I guess really for me then, I have to ask, what can leaders do to monitor that they’re doing a good job? How do you know? I think it’s so hard to get self-aware when you’re putting one fire out and the next fire out and the next fire out. And it really isn’t until those moments where people come in and say, “I’m leaving.” And frankly, I don’t even think some leaders associate the fact that their staff are leaving in some sort of mass exodus, that there’s no kind of internal reflection there. So what would you say leaders should be doing to monitor whether or not they’re doing a good job?

Scott Drake:

Yeah. So part of our training also is a scorecard. And a scorecard is a little bit deeper definition of what leadership… Leadership is working through others to get things done. I’m sorry. Yeah. Leadership is working through others to get things done. It’s getting results with an engaged team for enthusiastic customers while creating more leaders, right? So each of those things are things that you can measure. You can measure are you getting results? So building feedback loops in the form of KPIs or OKRs. Do you have an engaged team? Again, feedback loops through multiple sources, multiple ways of doing that. From one on one meetings to short surveys to broader things. Enthusiastic customers, again, feedback loops. Have you built feedback loops so that the truth as a leader?

Scott Drake:

So those are the big things is to, number one, different organizations going to balance those four overarching object things differently. So have set the right goals around which. Some organizations may say we’re really about developing our people, and that’s more important than actually some of the results, right? So we’re going to sacrifice results to develop people, right? Other organizations may say we have to get results. So you may balance it a little bit differently. So it’s number one, stepping back and being kind of strategic about how you balance those. But then it’s really building those feedback loops so that you can monitor and track over time.

Tosha Anderson:

Love that. So I guess really, leadership, we can’t do that in a silo. It’s getting that feedback loop. But I’m curious to know how can leaders build trust within their team, within their colleagues, to not only get that feedback loop, but get that feedback loop through motivation, engagement. All of those things I think kind of work hand in hand with the feedback loop of them not being motivated and getting things done. That is a feedback loop. Even if it’s not verbally. And then also engagement. Having those with conversation with their team or their team members coming to you. Like you had mentioned, you had a boss that you went back and tried coaching that person to get, hopefully, the results that you wanted. Clearly was unsuccessful, unfortunately. But how would you advise leaders to be able to build that trust, maintain that trust, get that feedback, get that engagement, get that motivation? Some tactical ways to do that.

Scott Drake:

Yeah. So one of my favorite things is to tell people, lose the competence you wore, right? You as a leader, a lot of times became the leader because you were competent. You were the most competent. You were the best accountant. You were the best computer programmer, right? And your attitude again is you feel like I’m here because I was the best, and I need to stay the best. Because I think my team will respect me and they’re going to trust me more if I’m competent, right? But it’s really kind of a trap. It’s a trap that ends up, what you end up doing if that’s your objective, if that’s the way you think… And I did that for a long time. That was one of the leveling of mindset things that I had to do, is to say that it’s not my job to have all the answers. And I’m actually going to cost myself trust with my team if I advocate too hard for my position. If I advocate more than I inquire.

Scott Drake:

So recognize that there’s a lot of ways to build trust. And that competency is the one we tend to, that’s kind of our hammer that we defer to. But really our competency can cost us the trust. So just lose the war, right? Don’t fight the war. There are times that I know that there’s 10 or 15% of things that my teams do that is really important that I need to step in and be involved in. But the other 85%, they might not do it the way I’d do it. And I got to be okay with that, right? I got to let them be the heroes of the story. I can’t be the hero of the story. They have to be the heroes of the story. And I have to be comfortable with that.

Scott Drake:

So yeah, so the some of the other ways to build trust, just keep things clear. Focus on making sure the goals are clear, the outcome are clear, that they have clear targets. Some of those things. Build connections with people, right? Connections build better trust a lot of times than your competency. Be consistent. Have a good character. There’s a guy named David Horsager who wrote a book called The Trust Edge. And it’s a really interesting read around just why trust is important, and some of the different factors that can lead to trust. And how competency, it’s the most obvious and the easiest, but it’s a trap more than it’s helpful for a leader.

Tosha Anderson:

So I’m hearing be consistent. I think it comes to my mind, I came across this phrase, paint done. Paint what done looks like. So for my team, when I ask them something, making sure that they completely and absolutely understand what it is that I’m asking them to do. And the last thing, along with those same lines, is letting the control of it go. I mean, we have an outcome focused business here. But how you get things done as long as they are legal, ethical, and for the most part, not hurting anyone in any way. We have some basic processes, but giving to that level of autonomy and trusting them. So not only just assigning them the task, but assigning them the responsibility to get those things done and make that kind of independent judgment and decision making.

Tosha Anderson:

So I love all of those things. Yes, definitely. I think we can all practice that a little bit more. And the more that we continue to do that, I agree. Trust is going to be built. And then getting that for feedback loop. It’s funny. Even I had a conversation with my assistant. It’s like, “Well you assign these things, but then you have a lot of opinions about them after the fact. As we’re moving into our new office, and where things go or how things are organized.” It’s like we have to continue as the business gets bigger and bigger and bigger letting go of the things. So no one asked me who we’re catering lunch from. No one asked me that question, right? So continuing to evolve in that space. We all are, aren’t we?

Scott Drake:

Yeah. One thing I’ll throw out there that I think is helpful for a lot of nonprofit leaders to understand is that there’s this idea of routine work, which needs to be handled through mechanistic management approaches. And then there’s creative or innovative work that doesn’t happen very often that it doesn’t make sense to put a bunch of processes around. And that benefits from more of an organic approach. So there are some things that just don’t happen often enough, and it’s a problem that has to be solved, and you can delegate the problem. But over time, if the team has to solve that same problem over and over and over, then you need to build of processes around it.

Scott Drake:

So a lot of people want to attack all problems as I have to put process around it, but you really only need to put process around the routine things that you deal with on a regular basis. So I think as people understand that, then they can begin to alter themselves as leaders, and say, what type of problem is this? Is this a place where processes are going to benefit? And if not, then step back and delegate the problem. So yeah, that’s one of the keys that I think help people understand who to show up as in that moment.

Tosha Anderson:

I love that because I feel like that is something that I’ve observed, and I certainly had that experience when I worked at a nonprofit. Again, I think that for-profit, nonprofit, it doesn’t matter. All businesses have this issue. And you hinted on something that a lot of what you’re describing to me, in some ways, it resonates with me because one of my kind of favorite business management books is E-Myth, which you probably heard of. But it really talks about going from a role player, right? So you being the technician or you being the expert in doing the things, the computer programmer, or the therapist in, in our case, or a social worker or something. You’re the best social worker. You’re the highest billing one. You really seem to understand the things. And then you get put into a nonprofit leadership role. And shifting that into a management style, because then you’re trying to create processes for things.

Tosha Anderson:

And I think there’s a lot of benefit to processes, but sometimes we can overprocess things to the point where it cripples our team’s ability to do some critical thinking. That’s something that we’ve kind of been challenging for us in my particular business, right? We try to process everything to the point where there there’s really not a process. There’s always an exception to the process, right? But I think for organizations that find themselves asking why… There’s organizations that have the same questions or the same problems, to your point, over and over and over again. As a leader, just stopping, pausing, asking, can I create a process around this, right?

Tosha Anderson:

I was talking about the client the other day. And she said, “Every time the trash didn’t get picked up in Brooklyn,” which is a huge deal. Apparently you can get fined if your trash doesn’t get picked up in Brooklyn. People would blow up her phone. And she’s like, “Okay, we have to have a better process than this because I can’t be the one only knowing how to get the trash out of our office.” So she developed a process around that. But then there’s other creative things, like you said, that there’s a much smaller frequency, but how to create an environment where people feel empowered to make decisions and also feel comfortable going to you as their leader to ask for more clarity on those sorts of things.

Tosha Anderson:

So it’s definitely a difficult balance, but sometimes I see it swung totally the other way. And again, I don’t think this is an industry specific thing. But leaders just say, I’m too busy to develop the process. I will just do it myself. Or I just don’t create the process, and then I have to rework the things that the team doesn’t maybe do correctly. And I think, as like E-Myth would say, in the absence of processes, you’ve just now created such a disaster of a business that you’re constantly putting out fires, right?

Tosha Anderson:

So I mean, striking that balance is really important for any business. And I always encourage our clients, not just on the accounting side, but any side to, like you mentioned, those transactional, those technical, those recurring tasks, find some ways to put some sort of systems around it and assigning those to very specific people. And then have backup plans in case those people aren’t available for whatever reason. But really also start brainstorming a little bit on the creative side.

Tosha Anderson:

And Scott, you kind of mentioned, sometimes I think a task is creative, but then another one of my staff people will ask it a couple months later. And then a few months later, someone else will ask it. And before I know it, the things that I thought initially were creative, that only I was able to do because I had the skillset or the experience and the ability to make those judgment calls, they’ve now over time evolved into things that I can create a little bit more processes around to make it a little bit easier to train. So things are always evolving in any business. So thank you for that. That’s helpful.

Tosha Anderson:

So Scott, you shared so many amazing tips, and I know you have more resources available for nonprofits. So first of all, I’m curious, how did you end up in this space? And then of course, I’m going to ask you for anybody listening, how can we find more of these tips that you offer around the world of nonprofit leadership? So first of all, I always like to ask, how did you end up in this space?

Scott Drake:

Yeah. So yeah, so actually my background is in tech. My background was a computer programmer, and kind of rose up through the leadership ranks. And I pretty much made every mistake and stubbed my toe 1,000 times rising the ranks. I made some bad hires that blew up some good teams. And just really, I say I made every mistake in the book. And I did. And what’s funny, though, is I studied a lot, right? I was constantly studying, yet I was not studying the right things and I was making a bunch of mistakes.

Scott Drake:

So it took me about 10 years to really feel comfortable in a leadership position and feel like I was doing a good job and could see that I was doing a good job. And then I started having leaders coming up under me, and they were saying, “Scott, what do we do?” And I said, “I don’t know.” But I was watching them make all the same mistakes I had made, right? So it’s like, I can’t watch you wreck my teams for 10 years while you figure this out. So I kind of set out and went on a research project that lasted about five years to just say, how do we better teach leadership for nonprofits? How do we simplify leadership? How do we make it easier to learn, easier to do, easier for teams to work better together?

Scott Drake:

And that all came together in a product called JumpCoach. That’s jumpcoach.com. It’s a course set of leadership training. The actual training, it’s only about four hours long. It’s kind of bingeable if you want to. But it’s really meant to be done over a 10 week, or even up to a 10 month period. It’s bite sized learning challenges. But it exposes the idea of the mindset. It exposes the idea of having a scorecard. And then it gives people tools to kind of get better over time. So yeah, I ended up in this realm because I couldn’t watch other people make the same mistakes I did. And it just became kind of my passion project. So a lot of nonprofits start as a passion project. Now I’m a social enterprise. I haven’t gone the nonprofit route. But at this stage, it’s kind of been my passion project as well.

Tosha Anderson:

I love that. So I’m on your website, Scott. So anybody that’s interested in getting this training and checking it out, tell us a little bit about your pricing. I mentioned that I find it really fascinating. I love it, actually. You have an online training course. It’s at jumpcoach.com. I’m on your website right now. And one of the things I notice is you kind of have a pay what you can mindset. So any organizations that are struggling out there with one team leadership coaching, maybe not for yourself, but maybe, Scott, you said something that I was a leader. I made all the mistakes. And then I had all these leaders behind me that were just destroying my teams and running this place into the ground.

Tosha Anderson:

And I think it’s also really important for us to focus time, energy, and effort on that middle management, right? So making sure that our teams are empowered in other ways. So for nonprofits, I know budget is always a concern. It’s always an issue. And I love that you have kind of a pay what you can suggestion on your training. So for those of you that are concerned, Scott’s great, I don’t know. I can’t afford it. Go to his website. It seems very flexible. Scott, is that right? Am I speaking of turn here?

Scott Drake:

Yes. It’s very loose. It’s un-gated. You don’t have to create an account to do it. You can just do it. And it’s training I sell to companies for the hundreds of dollars. But if you can’t afford it, don’t worry about it. If you’re a smaller nonprofit… If you’re a an eight figure, nine figure nonprofit, and you can pay me for it, and you have a budget, then sure, please do. But if you can’t, that’s okay too, right? So really, it’s structured that way and pay what you can because I wanted to make it available to students and nonprofits.

Scott Drake:

I’m just out the strip as many barriers away as I can that keep people from becoming the leaders they need to be. And complexity and cost and all those things are really a big piece of it. So yeah, it’s my passion project. I’m excited to get it out there and excited to get people through it. I just launched it about four months ago. So I’m working with some early cohorts. It’s self-paced, you can do it on your own. But I’ve been working some people, and the feedback’s been fantastic. So it’s been fun to kind of get out there and get it started.

Tosha Anderson:

I love that. Well, thank you so much. And for anybody looking for that, I’ll go ahead and put the link in the show notes here. Scott, thank you again so much for sharing your resources with us, and also certainly your time and expertise. So thank you again. And until next time, everybody, see you.